"Official" Forums

[Entity]

Originally Posted by Mordecai

i guess my only real concern is to have server forums which everyone on said server uses. that makes the community, and the community is the best part of a MMO.

i could care less about general boards or class boards where all people do is cry about imbalances - i just want one place to go to for everything related to my server.

Well, though I see your point, a good reference would be the AoC / WoW forums. It's usually insanely difficult to find good posts, most of them get buried under 100s / 1000s of flame, rant, & troll threads. The cleanest "official" forums I've seen in a game would be for LotRO (seperated by server, and various other sub-groups). However a lot of people don't use the forums, and the game does appear to be slowly dying, so that could very well be a contributing factor to it's cleanliness.

[El_MUERkO]

it's not like refusing to have forums will allow dev's to ignore when things go wrong! just look at the wow, eve, everquest, d&d, lotr ...etc lots of times when things go wrong the dev's ignore the forums \o/

forums do nothing other than focus the hate for others amusement, and there's only so many 'can i have your stuff' posts any one forum can bear before the server implodes

the only power we as customers have or need is the most important one of all, $$$, if it sucks balls then don't pay for

as ever more quality mmo's hit the market looking to take a chunk of WoW's pie they must compete ever harder to attract customers, that alone will ensure a reasonable level of service or ensure that mmo's failure

just look at the difference between the planned support for WAR in europe compared to DAOC and you'll see how the market has changed mmo's for the better!

but if my orc isnt anything other than imba i'm sending you cat feces in a box! and i don't own a cat

[Dutchie]

Originally Posted by Mbj

Folks,

An unofficial timeline for official MMORPG forums:
What follows (for clarity's sake) is the kind of stuff said by players/non-players on these forums.

Uh, just because a lot of people can't or choose not to control themselves that's no reason to paint with such a broad brush or dismiss official forums as some sort of open sewer. The problems that I have encountered in official forums(WoW, Lineage2) are:

1. The attitude of some CM's is that communication with players is a problem, not a solution to problems.

People pay to play many MMO's. They like them. They are there as fans. If you are straight up with folks then most(definitely not all) will shrug and move on. I can remember hanging out in the Shaman forum on the WoW boards and seeing CM's post nonsensical noise that caused confusion and increased aggitation. All they had to do was simply say something to the effect of, "You know, we're happy with the class. If we see the need to make changes then we will, but the class is what it is and we're satisfied with that." Instead the Shaman community got a lot of empty promises which only increased the tension and kept people who should have simply quit the class(since they weren't satisfied with it's current state) hanging on waiting for changes.

I know it's seductive to tell customers what they want to hear but that only causes problems. Hell, NCsoft promised character transfers from one server to another years ago and didn't produce until last month. People continued to level their characters on a server that they didn't like thinking that they were going to be able to move "soon" and then three years later it finally happened. That's not the fault of forum software, moderation, or a vindictive community...that's just blowing sunshine up someone's waaaghwaaaghwaaagh and then acting suprised when people get tired of it. All they had to do was come out and say, "Hey, we gave it a go and yes, it's still in the works but we have no ETA whatsoever so if you feel compelled to be on another server then our suggestion is to reroll."

Base line it for people and most will understand and actually end up feeling appreciative towards CM's.

2. Moderation is so lax that the community tries to regulate itself.

Good intentions or not, customers should not be put in the position of trying to "take out the garbage". There will always be whiners, naysayers, trolls, whatever no matter if it's the internet or anywhere else and leaving the players to sort it out is just messy. Hehe, I can remember some CM from WoW coming into the Shaman boards saying that they had information about the Shaman class but they weren't going to share it until the forum took on a more positive tone. It was hilarious in it's absurdity.

- They didn't want to ban the idiots, yet we were supposed to get them to shut up
- They had left the situation for so long that even some of the hardcore Shaman old timers had given up and started railing against Blizzard instead of asking for calm
- Punishing everyone for the actions of the loudmouths came accross as demeaning and completely counter productive

Basically, they(Blizzard) had gone about a year without posting in the Shaman forum and then when they realized people were pissed they tried to throw it back on the customers. It was a ridiculous abdication of responsibility.

Sorry, but I have seen forums done amazingly well(There.com) where an ounce of prevention truly is a pound of cure and situations where CM's don't post for 6-9 months and then they wonder why a message board(you know...where communication occurs) can be so vitrilolic. It all depends on the people running it and the tone they set for the community.

Official forums aren't bad...there just happens to be bad official forums.

[Entity]

Originally Posted by Dutchie

2. Moderation is so lax that the community tries to regulate itself.

The reason for this is because moderators on official forums are often overwhelmed. A lot of times moderating isn't even their only job assignment. When you have to keep 10s / 100s of thousands of people from spamming it tends to tire you out.

Moderating a forum is a lot like trying to kill a hydra. You tell one idiot to not do something. You ban him, and 3 more pop up in his place. You ban them, even more pop up. By the time things seem to have died down a bit, another hydra takes it's place and the process repeats, then switches to a new topic and on and on until eventually you are just back where you started, banning for the same old idiotic thing being done in the first place. Pretty exhausting work (a job I would not much care for).

[Dutchie]

Originally Posted by Entity

The reason for this is because moderators on official forums are often overwhelmed. A lot of times moderating isn't even their only job assignment. When you have to keep 10s / 100s of thousands of people from spamming it tends to tire you out.

Moderating a forum is a lot like trying to kill a hydra. You tell one idiot to not do something. You ban him, and 3 more pop up in his place. You ban them, even more pop up. By the time things seem to have died down a bit, another hydra takes it's place and the process repeats, then switches to a new topic and on and on until eventually you are just back where you started, banning for the same old idiotic thing being done in the first place. Pretty exhausting work (a job I would not much care for).

I've moderated communities with hundreds of users. Before anyone says, "LAWL, hundreds?!? WoW has millions of subscribers" realize that I was doing this in just a few minutes a day. What I found to be effective was something that WoW never embraced: simple rules repeated regularly followed up by harsh consequences. No muss, no fuss.

Blizzard CM's moaned about the atmosphere but rarely did they do anything proactive to try to maintain a positive communication environment. When things went horribly wrong they would be unbelievably slow to react(days or weeks in some cases) and even then they would give people some bans that lasted only a few days. So basically they gave people ample targets, waited for the grenade to go off, and a few days later the people throwing the grenades went right back to trolling. It was insanity.

By contrast, the new CM at the Lineage2 forums is doing a fabulous job even though she has been put into a position of defending the moves of a company far less capable than Blizzard. Whenever someone has beef she's either posted already or you know she probably will. Why does that matter? Well, the CM's at Blizzard swore up and down that they read class forums and other sections but after a while everyone knew it was a lie. When you know that there's no one watching then people start acting goofy. It's like living in a community that goes a whole year without seeing a cop...all of the sudden stop signs and red lights aren't as much of a big deal as they should be.

It's the very perception of oversight that keeps people inline. When a company as big as Blizzard can go a whole calendar year without posting in the Hunter forum then you start to realize how such a well oiled machine(sarcasm) can end up looking so pathetic.

[Boottohead]

My feelings are simular I think to some I've seen on here. Pre-release unofficial forums are fine. Don't waste too much resources since fan sites can provide the community with the same type of information.

But at launch I would hope to have some communication vehicle to Devs and support. Such has having a technical support forum so when I try to install the game and it bombs I can ask a dev what the problem may be and what new drivers I need to install.

I work for a fortune 500 company myself and we have our own internal boards for stockholders to communicate to us. Those boards get just as nasty and ridiculas and any gaming site. It has nothing to do with age more to do with the fact you have no face when you type on the Internet. We have a 73 year old stockholder that is perhaps the worst of all the posters with ridiculas rumors and made up stories.

This is the age we are in. You can run and hide from it all you want but it is here to stay.

[Avatar Of War]

[FONT=Book Antiqua]I have to say I disagree with not having official forums...
Look at whats happened currently, yes the developers come here but you don't see them much at other sites any more....

Supposedly this is fair way of getting to your community, the developers decide on which forum they like best and post there from time to time.
What about the other unofficial forums, so because the Developers dont like the format as much or prefer another site they don't get as much or any attention at all?

Take the case of MMORPG.com , they use to have a great forum on WAR and the developers use to post from time to time, then early last year the developers just stopped coming except for a Developers chats,etc.
Suddenly there is a mass migration to these forums because the developers made comments on them and there was a chance however slight that your opinions would be heard, where as at MMORPG.com that was no longer true, so the once robust community there for WAR moves here.

I would prefer a official forum to unofficial favorite children.

And Captain Squigs take on Mythics official forums is bollox. Yes I said bollox, the whole point of forums is so that Joe Schmoe can have a chance to be heard by the Developers, vent, cry, discuss, cheer, boo, debate issues that are important to them.
Its extremely elitist to say: Well theres an official forum, your just not good enough to be there and only those special special few should be allowed to talk to the developers?

Wow thats great... you must have set up the current super delegate system for the democratic primaries.
"Your vote counts.. just not as much as mine!"If thats the message why have forums at all period? Lets close down them all and only have a few people who the developers trust be able to discuss issues and and show concerns?

I really think an official forums would be better, no favorites, a central place to express your concerns about a game and maybe be heard, and a way to know that your concerns matter as much as Mythics hand picked select.

And let me ask you something Captain squig:
All things being equal, I will pay the same amount as Mythics select (maybe more, because the select may get free accounts or other bonuses)... we don't know), so why should they get preferential treatment? Because they played another game and proved themselves? I'm paying the same amount for the same content and the same treatment supposedly.
They should not be playing favorites. Yet they seem to be doing it more and more.
[/FONT]

[Mbj]

Folks,

The age we are living in is definitely a different one. I've gone from moderating forums with hundreds of people to seeing forums that are supposed to support games with millions of people. I wish it was as simple as set a few rules, apply them fairly, be honest with the players and then everything will be all right. It just isn't that way, no matter how much we would like it to be. Heck, even on our own beta forums we have people who refuse the follow the rules, break NDAs, ignore stickies, etc. and we do all the right things. No matter how well-intentioned the mods, unless a company is ready, willing and able to devote a ton of staff to the forums (24x7 mods, ruthless enforcement, limited topic creation ability, large staff), there are simply too many people to handle unless you have either an incredibly thick skin or so few available posting venues (as opposed to reading venues) to make it less than worthwhile. Scale is a wonderful and terrible thing and I'm sorry but you can't compare a game(s) that are small to games like WoW or even what we hope WAR will be in terms of number of subscribers. Also, the type of game has a direct effect on the style of the community. Let's face it, in a game like WAR or DAoC in which conflict between the races, sides, etc. is a main selling point, the forums for these games will be rather, hmm, enthusiastic. Lots of screaming and yelling, lots of false reports and tons of exaggeration. Whether it is WAR, WoW, DAoC or any other game in which RvR or PvP plays a major role, all these games share a very similar community. And I've seen more than enough from DAoC and WoW alone, to tell me that I am indeed right in my assessment. And I am happy to make a prediction here, when AoC launches, if they have official forums (I don't know their stance on it), they will have the same kind of behavior that the aforementioned games have had, count on it. If I'm wrong, I'll be also happy to admit it.

From my perspective, I'm not as concerned with the cost in terms of dollars (but the players should be) but rather what I will have to put my people through to run those forums. If WAR is as successful as we hope, we will have more users than any other MMORPG other than WoW. If that is true, we will be flooded by good users and bad. When things turn ugly, and they always do, my people will be insulted, yelled at, cursed at, threatened and told the vilest things possible. When we launched DAoC, one of my rules for our Customer Service Reps was that they didn't have to sit still and be abused by customers. I believe it is every customers' right to complain about the service but I also do not believe it is every customers' right to treat other human beings as people that they can dump on and treat in a manner that I know they wouldn't want to be treated themselves. I've said this before but unless you have worked the backend for one of these games, you do not really understand how ugly players can get when dealing with CMs/CSRs. I've seen more than my fair share of this ugliness directly and no amount of wishful thinking will make it otherwise. I care greatly about providing my customers with a great game but I also care deeply about my people, whether developer or CSR, and I don't want them to have to go through what I've seen happen both in other games as well as our own. While the percentage of people that are truly abusive is small, when you get to the kind of numbers we hope to have with WAR and given the type of game we are, that small percentage can suck up a lot of time and energy if you want to run forums properly. Just so you know, I would never want to have official forums that we ignore just so we could say we have official forums. That is, quite frankly, BS. As I've told our CM people when we talked about this issue, if we are going to do it, we would have to do it right.

Now, this doesn't mean we won't communicate to the community directly. Our Herald system was the best in the industry when we launched it for DAoC and we want to take it to the next level with WAR. We will have internal tester forums and we might have what we had with DAoC in terms of outside, specifically focused forums to help the players as well as to get additional feedback for us. However, even those had their share of false reports, exaggerations, etc. which diminish their usefulness and cost us time and money. We will also continue to post in places like these and make ourselves available to the community where we can. I want to reiterate that both official forums and internal forums, we have misspent a fair amount of time based on what users have sworn said happened, they saw, etc. At least with internal forums (and they can get heated at time), we know that the people there actually want to be there and help and not just post something to waste our time. And we've had our time wasted so often that it is ridiculous (even with QA sometimes you have to pass things on to devs quickly if it is potentially serious enough).

However, if you are looking for Mythic to provide wide-open official forums where people can threaten, curse, vent, etc., we have no intention of doing that now or in the future. There might be a hybrid solution but for now, I'm choosing to err on the side of caution.

Oh, BTW, I've said this before as well, I also post as myself, never an alias. I do this so people know who they are talking to and what I stand for, even if they think/know I'm wrong. I do believe if people posted under their own names the Internet would be a lot more polite. Anonymity is a very good thing at times but when it comes to issues like these, it isn't. It certainly is not true for everybody but it couldn't be much worse than it is and has become over the years. Twenty years of dealing with online communities has taught me many lessons, one of which is that most people (not all) will say things under an alias that they would never do under their real name or in person. I've lost track of the number of people I've met who on the boards/Internet were angry, vicious, unreasonable and nasty but in real-life, the exact opposite. Heck, even some people say that I'm a lot nicer in RL than I might appear to be at times here.

In closing, I do wish I believed that having official forums would be a great move for WAR. Even with the jerks/griefers/flamers/etc., I love online communities, I just cannot be convinced that in 2008, the right way to launch an MMORPG like WAR is with wide-open official forums.

Mark

[Garthilk]

Originally Posted by Mbj

No matter how well-intentioned the mods, unless a company is ready, willing and able to devote a ton of staff to the forums (24x7 mods, ruthless enforcement, limited topic creation ability, large staff), there are simply too many people to handle unless you have either an incredibly thick skin or so few available posting venues (as opposed to reading venues) to make it less than worthwhile.

So my question is. Given that developers have in the past spent the resources, money, and often hundreds of thousands of dollars to try and make it worthwhile, and subsequently failed.

Why do developers expect that 3rd party communities will be more successful with no professional community managers, less official clout and overall less resources than the developers did?

I'm genuinely curious. What people believe that a 3rd party community site can do that an official one cannot?

Do these things add up to make 3rd party communities more than worthwhile?

Now, I've got my own opinions on why 3rd party communities are a much better solution. However, I'm interested at why everyone else thinks they're a better solution.

[malavhe]

Mbj, a good point Avatar of War made in post just before yours was that fans will flock and give more credence to whatever fansite forums that they perceive gets the most of you and your colleagues attention. What will Mythic do to balance this? Will you grow more reclusive after launch to 'stay fare'? Do the CMs s end you links to different discussion threads that are thought to be worth your while?

[Andolar]

I think that this is enough word and time from Mark at this point and I for one certainly appreciate his repeated and informative posts on Mythic's ethical stance towards certain aspects of community relations. He's made it clear for both more for ethical and somewhat for financial reasons why WAR will not have official forums of the type that other MMOs have tried in the past with largely unsuccessful results.

Like I said a bit earlier, it does not matter how much money, resources, or people you dump into an official forum, you will never be able to make it right. Because people will ruin the intent of the forum either by forcing the company to make so many restrictions there is little point left in the forum, or by flaming endlessly and causing so much negative PR that the forums become a deadzone with only constant mockery and posturing.

[malavhe]

Having read Garthilks post; I believe there should be official forums because it is unfair to foist all the work onto the community. People have argued, over-eloquently in some cases, that Official forums are hugely expensive in terms of time and resources ( = money). Why should the fans be made to carry that burden with little more than a 'thank you' from the Devs and the Community. Some of you will argue that the Mods here to it eagerly and enjoy what they do. That does not matter, voluntarily labour is as exhausting as forced.

[Rickah]

Sorry if someone has said this before (i didn't read every post) but i think possibly not having official forums will mean the people who actually use fan websites and forums like WHA will only really make the effort to seek them out because they want to use the forum, basically i mean i don't think there will be as many trolls because they won't be as easy to find. Also it spreads the workload of moderating i suppose

[Krim]

Originally Posted by Mbj

Folks,

Lots of screaming and yelling, lots of false reports and tons of exaggeration. Whether it is WAR, WoW, DAoC or any other game in which RvR or PvP plays a major role, all these games share a very similar community. And I've seen more than enough from DAoC and WoW alone, to tell me that I am indeed right in my assessment.

Mark

Lets hit this point for a second. I will grant that there are many people out there who abuse the right to post, Furthermore, they will use it the fact that no one knows who they are or worse, that they are better than another person to show that the person has no clout. But what it seems to me is that you are shrugging off the responsibility of Listening to your community. Your point about it costing lots of money is granted, But How will you communicate with your community?

I mean really, Your saying that third party website Such as this one, are supposed to take on the weight of running Forums for you? I could ramble on with many reasons I disagree with this, But im not here to flame. I just find the, I don't want to deal with Flamers, Rude peoples and Liars to clog up my forum, so i don't want to make one at all; as a not very fair reason. I feel that this will put a gap between you and the community, because, they have to go to Someone else's to tell you how they feel, and theres a chance it wont be read. Sucks to be them tho, eh Mate?

[Pugslah]

I am glad EA Mythic is stickin' to the no Official forums.
Not all forums are perfect, but Fansites tend to have stricter Rules, and whatnot.
Like the Starcraft forums on B.net are horrible, but most of the fansites are pretty chill.